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The enduring influence of Charles Wesley

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When it comes to the Brothers Wesley, most people know John as the preacher and Charles as the hymn writer. What is less recognized, however, is how Charles, the younger of the two, was a trailblazer, often forging ahead of his brother. The Rev. Dr. Paul Chilcote, world-renowned Wesley scholar, discusses the lingering influence of Charles' lyrical theology on the Methodist movement and poses the question that Chilcote believes Charles would ask: What is the song that sings in your heart?

Join us for this special episode of "Get Your Spirit in Shape," when Dr. Ashley Boggan, general secretary for the General Commission on Archives and History, joins host Crystal Caviness to speak with Chilcote about Charles Wesley's life and contributions to the Methodist church.

Paul Chilcote

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This episode posted on October 7, 2022.



Crystal Caviness, host: When it comes to the brothers Wesley, most people think John is the preacher and Charles as the hymn writer. What is the last recognized, however, is how Charles, the younger of the two, was a trailblazer, often forging ahead of his brother and the lingering influence of Charles’ lyrical theology on the Methodist Movement.


Crystal: Welcome. We have a special episode of Get Your Spirit in Shape today. I’m here with my friend, Dr. Ashley Boggan, the Chief Executive of the General Commission on Archives and History. She’s an author, an academic, a Methodist historian and she has been a guest, just a few weeks ago, on Get Your Spirit in Shape. And today she’s here as the co-host of our podcast. Welcome, Ashley.

Ashley:  Thanks for having me back, Crystal.

Crystal: You’re welcome. You’re no stranger to podcasts. You host your own podcast. Do you want to tell our audiences about that?

Ashley:  Sure. Archives and History has had a podcast about a year and a half now. It’s called “Un-tied Methodism” where we unravel the past to make sense of today. We try to produce a monthly episode. And we talk with various scholars and academics, sometimes bishops and clergypersons and laity about how history comes to life and matters in today’s world and in today’s conversations within United Methodism.

Crystal: And those podcasts are available on Spotify and Apple podcasts and all the places where people find podcasts.

Ashley:  Just remember the hyphen between un and tied. Un-tied Methodism.

Crystal: And today Ashley and I will be talking with the Reverend Doctor Paul Chilcote. Paul is a retired elder in the United Methodist Church. He is a prolific author, having written 30 books, and most recently directed the Center for Global Wesleyan Theology at Wesley House in Cambridge, England. This past July Ashley and I had the pleasure of meeting Paul and spending 10 days with him and others in his role as one of the leaders of the Wesley Pilgrimage in England. Paul, welcome to Get Your Spirit in Shape.

Paul: Thank you so much, Crystal. It’s so fun to be here with you and Ashley and look forward to our conversation.

Crystal: Well, we’re looking forward to it, too. And we’re gonna talk about Charles Wesley today. There’s always conversations about John Wesley. But today we want to talk about Charles. What we learned on the Wesley Pilgrimage is Charles was not just in a supporting role during the founding of Methodism. In fact, in some ways he was a trailblazer just as much as his brother. So, we want to talk about that. But we’ll kind of start with just a basic question: why are you interested in Charles Wesley?

Paul: On a psychological level I’m the second born of 2 sons. So, I’ve always identified with Charles, a little bit more than John in that regard. I just have that one older brother. And a lot of my professional work related to the Wesleys has been trying to get Charles out from under elder brother John’s shadow. And as you’ve said at the very beginning, you know, a lot of us know about John, but so few know about Charles. But when you look at the influence of this figure in relationship to John, I’d almost make the remark that Charles’ lingering influence is greater than John’s. And let me illustrate. Yesterday my wife Janet and I were not able to watch the funeral of Queen Elizabeth II on the actual day. So, we were watching the recording yesterday. And I was just moved by the fact that Queen Elizabeth II chose “Love Divine, All Loves Excelling,” that great hymn of Charles Wesley, as the closing hymn. So as…in that service, as people moved into the final prayers of the service, they had that image lingering in their minds and hearts of casting our crowns before him, “lost in wonder, love and praise.” Now I can’t help but think that Queen Elizabeth was deeply influence by the hymns of Charles Wesley. She chose one for her funeral. And this may be the religious service, a religious service, viewed by more people globally than any other service ever. And Charles Wesley was there. That’s powerful.

Crystal: It definitely is a testament to his enduring legacy, for sure. But why is it that John is…why is John better known?

Paul: That’s an interesting question. But I think a part of it is owing to the fact that as 18th century brothers in England, Charles had learned early that you always defer to your older brother. So, there’s a deference that Charles pays to John that kind of takes himself, Charles, out of the spotlight and puts John into it. So, you’ll recall from the pilgrimage (and I probably made the point way too many times) that Charles Wesley was oftentimes first in some of the important events that were there at the birth of Methodism. So, Charles Wesley is actually converted…. I think that’s the language most people would understand. He’s converted 3 days prior to older brother John’s Aldersgate experience. And it’s interesting to me, even in the language that’s used in their journal accounts of those experiences—those religious experiences—Charles actually refers to the heart, his own heart. You know, we think of John Wesley’s heartwarming experience. But 3 days earlier Charles had a similar experience and also talks about the heart. So, if you think about the Holy Club that John Wesley will later describe as the first rise of Methodism, well John didn’t start the Holy Club, Charles did. But then when John returned to England to take up responsibilities that he has as a tutor at Lincoln College, as a fellow of Lincoln College, Charles relinquishes leadership of that fledgling group, and John takes control. There’s even some evidence… You know, we think of April 2, 1739, as a critical date because that’s when John Wesley preached for the first times in the fields in Kingswood near Bristol. And I would say that…that’s the day that Methodism was born as a movement. It became a movement at that time. But there’s some evidence that Charles Wesley actually did field preaching a little earlier than that…than John did. So, there are so many of these firsts for Charles that get lost in his deference to older brother John. And I think there is a certain sense in which John was a kind of a native leader. He just had all the DNA. There was a part of leadership of something new like that. I think Charles was an entrepreneur, you know, and that he gave birth to a number of difference ideas or practices within the movement. But I think John was maybe the more nature person then to take up the mantle of leadership with regard to them. And we all know that John Wesley was an organizational genius. There’s just no other question about that. So, I would think…you know, it’s goo broad of a generalization. But if you have any images in your minds of John and Charles Wesley, I’d say Charles is the creative partner in this partnership. John is the methodical, kind of logical, organizational aspect of the partnership. And, as you rightly said at the beginning, without both I don’t think we’d have Methodism today as we know it. It took both brothers.

Ashley:  And I always, whenever I teach their relationship in Methodist History classes, I try to describe exactly what you’re getting out. It’s not really a sibling rivalry, but I think my students relate to late because, like you said, like some of them have siblings and they understand the whole, like, being the older sibling. And if you have a younger sibling that’s doing these things that you’re striving for, it might give you that little push to get there.

Paul: Yeah.

Ashley:  And I always describe Charles Wesley as almost the PR person for John, ‘cause he was the one who was relatable, who understood, I think, social situations better than John. I think John was very controlling to a fault in some senses when it came to how do you relate to others. I think he was very charismatic, but not really the most socially aware person. Whereas Charles had that relationality that really helped John figure out how to navigate different insights.

Paul: Absolutely. And, you know, one of the early Oxford Methodists, part of that Holy Club, one time said that Charles Wesley was made for friendship. He was made for friendship. And I think the English would say, ‘He was very affable.” You know, he had an affable personality. People warmed to him very quickly, very social. And you’re right, I think John was a different personality, different kind of a character. And it took both.

Crystal: One of the places that we visited, that I enjoyed the most, was going to Charles Wesley’s home in Bristol. And I shared this when Ashley and I were kind of recounting that experience on a previous episode. But I just had this feeling it was such a loving home. He and his wife were there. They were raising their children. You could see the evidence of their musical talent. And I could just imagine people coming there and feeling welcome, and the hospitality that happened there. And you contrast that with the room that John had at the New Room where he, because he was in and out all the time, I mean, it felt that Charles maybe had a more balanced life. Do you think that’s a fair assumption?

Paul: I think it’s absolutely fair. You know, one of the contrasts… (I’m sure you do this too, Ashley in teaching Methodism.) …something will always come up about John Wesley’s marriage which was horrendous. And I immediately want to balance that off with Charles Wesley’s marriage with Sarah or Sally Gwen, a Welsh woman, that was really idyllic. I mean, that’s the language I would use with regard to it. And there’s also another key element, I think, here. When you visited Charles Wesley’s house, one of the first rooms you would have gone into was the music room. So, music was at the very center of the Wesley home experience. And I think when music fills a space, I really believe that brings joy. I mean, there’s a certain joy that music brings. And it’s maybe important to say to the listeners that Charles Wesley, he was a decent musician, but he did not write the music of the hymns. I think that’s a misunderstanding many people have, that Charles wrote the music. He wrote the words for the hymns that were then set to tunes that other people created. But his children were musical prodigies. They were known by Handel, for example, because of the depth of their musical ability. And it’s that musical element…. And that’s one of the things that I love about Charles, as well, because I’ve been a singer all my life. So, I have kind of a natural affinity to the song of the Wesleys.

Ashley:  I actually had a student ask me one time: Did John play any instruments? Like, ‘cause back then it was so common to kind of be trained. And knowing Susanna, you know, like she insured that her kids were raised (quote/unquote) properly. But I’ve never heard if John was musical.

Paul: I’m gonna say yes and no because it depends where you rank the instrument. He was exceptionally good on the recorder. So, John played the recorder and actually many…. Dick Heightsenmader(?), I think, did a whole lecture one time on John Wesley and his recorder, and actually accompanied it himself. Dick learned to play the recorder because John had played the recorder. So, there was that. But in terms of kind of classical instruments, I’m not aware that he did anything other than maybe a little simple keyboard. And Charles, you know, Charles had his own organ. And that organ is now at Wesley’s Chapel in London in the little side chapel next to the main worship space there.

Ashley:  I mean, that was one of the things that, I know, I enjoyed so much about the pilgrimage, was seeing all of these artifacts that…. You know, we can’t touch them even though I tried. Just like, being so close you could almost feel or see, even picture Charles sitting at his organ and producing the hymns that would be sung at Queen Elizabeth II’s funeral.

Paul: Yeah. But one of my favorite spaces in that regard is the top floor of Charles Wesley’s home there in Bristol where he did sit and write many of the hymns in that space. So, I think, you know, those spaces are important. This is something I’ve learned increasingly, I think, over my lifetime is that space has significance. I think a lot of us think it’s empty, you know. Well, it’s not empty. It’s filled with memory. It’s fill with experience and event. And I picture Charles Wesley up in that garret, you know, looking out over what would have been the quay, the dock, that he would have been able to see. Today there are modern buildings that block your view. But he would have been able to see all the way across to the quay and see the tall-masted ships there and being creative in that space. And there are many accounts of Charles returning home on horseback, of course, and jumping off his horse and yelling, ‘quill and ink,’ ‘quill and ink,’ because he had something in mind that he wanted to write down as quickly as he possibly could. You know, 9,000 hymns in a lifetime. That’s pretty staggering. You know, not all of them are ’Love Divine, All Loves Excelling,’ you know, ‘Oh, for a thousand tongues to sing.’ So, they’re not all the greatest hymns. But so many of them are just profound, and particularly profound in terms of theology. So, these are hymns that I would say are packed with 2 things: they’re packed first and foremost with scripture. When the Wesley Works were in production, and they were doing work on what came to be volume 7, which is the collection of hymns for the people called Methodists that was published in 1780, I was a doctoral student at the time and working with Dr. Frank Baker in his home and being there kind of as an assistant. And it was one of my jobs …. (And this is predigital age, folks.) …so, no digital files, looking through those hymns and attempting to identify all the scriptural allusions in those hymns. And then in the end we segregated, I think, around 10 hymns that we could easily identify, had a different scriptural allusion with every line of the poetry. As I’ve told my students over the years, it’s not that Charles Wesley sat down one afternoon and had a line that ended with love. And he’s going, what rhymes with love? What rhymes with…oh, dove. Let me look in my Thesaurus and see where I can find dove in scripture? No. It was him. All those scripture allusions, all of that was living in him and simply rolled out, flowed out through his pen. So, it’s filled with scriptures, the hymns. But secondly, packed with theology. Early Methodists learned their theology. Truth to be told, I think, we today learn much of our theology by singing. You think of the power of music in all different forms from the most radical contemporary forms to the most radical traditional forms of worship. We learn our theology by singing it. And even, you know, kind of subconsciously those texts are there in our brains. I remember a dear friend of mine, a professor, when I was at Duke was John Westerhoff who was a specialist in religious education—Christian education. And he told us quite a number of stories in class sessions about experiences that he had with people at their bedside on their deathbeds, and the way in which music and hymns when they didn’t know who he was, they couldn’t even know who their family members were, etc. But he would begin to sing (let’s just say) Amazing Grace. And they’d be right there with you and sing all the words along with you. Music goes deep in us. And so, I think this is one of the reasons why Charles Wesley’s influence has been so longstanding and will continue to roll on, I hope, through the ages.

Ashley:  So, you said Charles wrote about 9,000 hymns. I’ve heard as few as, like, 6,000 and as most as like 12,000. How do we know…? What is the distinguishing characteristic that allows us to identify a hymn as Charles Wesley’s and what accounts for these drastic differences in the number of hymns that he’s written or alleged hymns that he’s written?

Paul: A couple of things on that. One thing I would certainly want your listeners to know…. You simply pull out your computer and just do a search of Wesley texts Duke. That’s Duke University. Wesley texts Duke. The first hits on that search will be the published in the manuscript hymns of Charles Wesley. And my dear friend and colleague Randy Maddox and his wife Eileen, in a labor of love, basically worked through the entirety of Charles Wesley’s hymn corpus. And all of those texts are now online in digital format free. All you have to do is go there and look at them. So, you can actually…these are things you can actually count. So, a part of the difference of numbers has to do with different editions of hymns that have been published over the years, not all of the manuscript hymns, for example, being included in those counts. Sometimes there’s duplication of hymn texts. So, the first publication of John and Charles Wesley together…. Most of these hymn collections were jointly published although almost all of them written by Charles. John did write a few, but very few. So, in those early texts it was hymns and sacred poems. Then there were subsequent editions of hymns and sacred poems, some duplication. So, a lot of the difference in numbers has to do with that kind of an issue. When push comes to shove, I’m always gonna go with my doctor father, Frank Baker, who probably knew in his lifetime as much about Charles Wesley as anyone else. And he always argued 9,000 hymns. It’s about the same number as Fanny Crosby. The gospel hymn of Fanny Crosby. She was unbelievably prolific as well. There’s a big however at the end of this. And it has to do with the counting. In the hymns of Fanny Crosby there was a lot of repetition of refrains, for example, and that sort of thing. So, if you go by actual lines of poetry, count the lines of poetry, there is much less than Charles Wesley in Fanny Crosby. But my goodness, I’m not gonna take away from the production of either of those two giants. And again, both of those figures…. And by the way, Fanny Crosby was a Methodist. So, the influence of this is tremendous across Christianity and the globe.

Crystal: Paul, we think of Charles as a hymn writer, poet. But would he have also called himself a preacher?

Paul: Absolutely. There is a definitive addition of Charles Wesley’s sermons that’s available to you. And yes, you’re always gonna get argument back and forth when you think of three of these great…I’ll call them evangelical, preachers of the 18th century—John Wesley, George Whitfield and Charles Wesley. Who was the best? Well, you know, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, right? So, I think a lot of the decision on that is what you actually know of the sermons. We have many more of John’s sermons than we have of Charles. So, there’s a bigger body of material to look at and work through there. But then many of those sermons that we do have were actually never preached. Another misconception. I don’t want to dwell on John  too much. I want to stay on Charles. But the so-called standard sermons, the official sermons of John Wesley, most of those were not preached. They weren’t written to be preached. They were more like sermonic essays. They were more for reading than they were for actual preaching. But getting into how these great preachers of the 18th century actually preached requires some research and eyewitness accounts. And it’s interesting to look at some of these eyewitness accounts. A lot of my work (as you both know) was related to women in early Methodism. So, I’ve looked through much of the women’s material—women’s journals, letters, etc. in early Methodism to discern what they have to say about the preaching, not just of the Wesley brothers but of other itinerant preachers of the 18th century as well. Those accounts are really interesting because my main takeaway…. Again, sorry, but it’s related to John. …is the sermons of John we read are basically nothing like the sermons he preached. The sermons he preached were (how should I put it?) …they were more of an urgency than anything else. If there was a singular text I could identify almost for every sermon, it would be: Now is the day of salvation. Now. Now. Now. And I think Charles was very similar to that. There was an urgency in his preaching. They really believed they were engaged in soul winning work. And that doesn’t mean just going to heaven. They weren’t out there preaching to get people into heaven. They were out there preaching, and Charles was out there producing these hymns to help people fall in love with God, knowing that God has loved them first, and then sharing that love lavishly in the life of the world. The whole purpose…. Charles…. This is just… nails down Charles. His whole purpose is love. I know that sounds so trite and simplistic, but that’s the fact. The whole purpose of his life, the whole purpose of his work, his hymns was God’s love and helping the world to know that in the difficulties we encounter in life we’re not alone. And God loves us. In the difficult decisions we have to make, the proclamation of those hymns is you’re not alone, and God loves you. So, once again, just such a powerful testimony to his life and his work.

Ashley:  The message I always try to get across especially when I talk about either John’s or Charles’ understanding of love is that it’s not only that God loves you, but that God’s love compels you to get up. And that gets to that sense of urgency you’re talking about. If you recognize that you are loved by God and loved by God first, you have to get up and share love. You can’t sit there…

Paul: Absolutely.

Ashley:  …and just be love. You have to become love and get out in the world. It’s that urgency that leads to action.

Paul: Yeah. In our Wesleyan theology the idea of action, being active, just pervades every aspect of our theology. There’s no passivity in Methodist theology. If you then align that with singing…. You know, if you think of your own life, as I oftentimes do and have encouraged my students to do, if you think of your own life as a song to be sung… Just ask yourself the question, what is the song? You know, what is the song that your life is singing? And certainly, it’s maybe first and foremost a song of gratitude, you know, a song of gratefulness for the life that we’ve been given, for the love that we’ve come to know and are called and compelled to share with others. That’s the song—the song of love divine. I’ve met a number of people who just really…I hate to say…can’t sing. No matter what you do, can’t sing. But they may still love to sing. I think most people love to sing. I think there’s something deep down in us that wants to sing, wants to sing. And I think that even has to do with how we’re created and with the nature of creation itself. You know, the Hebrew in the creation narrative about how God creates all that is, talks about the word, usually translated the word, God speaks. God speaks everything into existence. I think it’s right to say that you could actually say ‘sings.’ God sings everything into existence. I think the whole universe is enveloped in song. I’m not a physicist, but I sure like thinking that way about life, that life is filled with song. And that means, then, it’s all different kinds of songs. It’s…you know, it’s the Negro spiritual. It’s blues. It’s classical music. It's contemporary rap. It’s all song. And if you think for a moment about how much your life is bound up in song, I think that’s another connection we have with Charles Wesley. He felt the same way about life, and he just had the amazing gift to be able to produce words that could then be set to musical texts and sung deeply into our lives.

Crystal: Paul, as you have spent decades studying Charles Wesley and at one time you were the president of the Charles Wesley Society, what might surprise people the most about Charles Wesley?

Paul: Oh wow. What most people, I think, don’t know anything about the Wesley’s children. And I think they may not think of Charles as a parent, as a father. But I would describe Charles as a passionate father. You see this in particular, ironically, in some of the hymns that Charles wrote related to his own children or written for children. He had a deep connection with children. And because of that in the 18th century, you know, most families would be prepared to lose half their children to death before the age of 5. So, Charles and Sally experienced the pathos of life, you know, in the death of some of their children. And in reading through some of the hymns that Charles Wesley wrote on those occasions…I mean, I was moved to tears by the depth of pathos. Maybe this isn’t something unique about Charles, but it’s what’s surfacing in my mind and my heart right now as we speak. But he just had such a passionate love for his children and for children in general, and wanted all children to know, again, at a time in 18th century England, the masses of the poor, children were just not a part of life in people’s thinking. Some were on the side of life. He put them in the center. He really did.

Crystal: I love thinking of him as a father and the importance that you write. I mean, that surprises me.

Ashley:  And I think that’s one of those spaces where, again, he and John’s life were so contrasting.

Paul: Right.

Ashley:  …is Charles…and that’s where the affability comes out, too. Right? Of Charles is this person who settles down and gets married and has a family and has this big home in Bristol and John doesn’t do that. You know? He’s later in life, pused to get married. And like you referenced earlier it’s not exactly a happy marriage. And he doesn’t have children. “And so, I agree with you, Paul. I think it’s so important to remember that not only is he this brilliant lyrical poet and theologian and a decent preacher. But he is also a dad. And that does… I don’t’ want to say gives a deeper sense to the idea of reading through some of his lyrics. But like seeing the love in action in a different way through Charles than necessarily through a John I think is smart.

Paul: Yeah. I think one of the things I would say in…. It’s not, again, pejorative toward John at all. But I think Charles had a particular understanding of life that was different from John’s because it involved family. It involved parenting. It involved relationship with a spouse. I mean, John really had no relationship with his spouse—to be honest about it. But Charles did and he gives us a model of what that might look like in different times and places.

Crystal: As we get ready to finish up, is there anything you want to share about Charles that we didn’t have a chance to talk about yet?

Paul: Oh, wow. How many hours is this?

Crystal: We’re starting this series.

Paul: Oh, we’ve covered so much, and Charles’ influence is just so pervasive within our tradition. I think that’s the thing to remember. And just pull us back to the image of a Charles Wesley hymn being sung at Queen Elizabeth’s funeral. The influence is profound. And when I say the influence, it’s not just that we sing hymns that Charles Wesley wrote. But, those hymns and the theology of those hymns, that lyrical theology, gets incorporated into our own lives. So, one of the things that I do hope is that Charles Wesley’s hymns are not lost in our Methodist tradition. Increasingly, you know, in courses that I’ve taught I’ve often made singing an important part of courses related to Wesley. So, we would oftentimes sing Wesley hymns. And I find it an increasingly the case that when I would say let’s sing such-and-such a hymn, and a lot of my students don’t know the hymn. You know, don’t know the tune because the hymns are not being sung as much. But one of the things I would say is if we don’t sing the hymns, we can still read them. And early Methodist people actually used their hymnals as profound devotional resources, to simply read through the hymns. And on the other hand, there are a lot of efforts being made today to recast Charles Wesley’s hymns in new tunes, contemporary tunes, so that they can be sung with a little more engagement, perhaps, than the older tunes of a different time and place. But they still remain amazing devotional resources for us in ways of filling our life with joy and meaning and purpose and love for God and others.

Crystal: Paul, we have one question that we ask all of our guests on Get Your Spirit in Shape. How do you keep your own spirit in shape?

Paul: Yeah. Well directly related to what I’ve just said and using the hymns as a devotional resource, one of the things that I’ve done myself is create what I call lectio canticum. So, a singing reading of song as a devotional practice. I would strongly recommend that to people, to take a Charles Wesley text…. And I do my lectio is a fourfold pattern as is the kind of the standard way of doing it, but using the words ‘proclaim,’ ‘pray,’ ‘ponder,’ and ‘practice.’ So, proclaim, pray, ponder, and practice. So, it’s kind of roughly coincides with traditional lectio of reading, prayer, meditation and contemplation. So, I’ll take a hymn and proclaim in the first piece. So, I’ll just read through the hymn, just hear the words again and oftentimes saying them out loud. It helps, I think, to actually vocalize them, to hear them. So, proclaim, read through the hymn. Then secondly, pray that hymn. What I mean by that is just listening for a phrase or a word that lingers, you know, in your mind—that stands out in your heart or your mind. And then, ponder. To ponder the meaning of that word, that phrase. And to listen to some kind of an invitation. What is God inviting you to do with that realization, with that connection that you’ve made with those words?  And then finally, after a fourth reading of the text, think about how you’ll put that into practice, not just sit here and meditate on it, ponder it, but actually then move it into your life. Live it out in the life of your day. So, take a hymn and proclaim the hymn, pray it, ponder it and practice it. And I hope you find that to be a helpful way of growing deeper in your relationship with God through a Charles Wesley text.

Crystal: I love that. Well, thank you, Paul. Thank you for being a guest here. It’s just been so…such a rich conversation and really interesting. So, thank you for sharing that and Ashley, thank you for co-hosting with us today.

Ashley:  Thanks for letting Un-tied Methodism piggyback off this. And it’s always great to hear from Paul and to engage about Charles. So, thank you.

Paul: great to be with both you Ashley and Crystal. Thanks for the invitation.


Crystal: Thank you so much for joining us for today’s episode of Get Your Spirit in Shape when Dr. Ashley Boggan, General Secretary of the General Commission on Archives and History joined me as co-host to speak with the Reverend Dr. Paul Chilcote, pastor, author and internationally acclaimed scholar on the Wesleys. To learn more about Paul, his books and ministry go to and look for this episode. In addition to the helpful links and a transcript of our conversation, you’ll find my email address so you can talk with me about Get Your Spirit in Shape. I look forward to the next time that we’re together. I’m Crystal Caviness.